White House Confirms Illegal Wiretaps and Says They Will Continue...
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/17/bush.nsa/index.html
This story was recently reported on digg where it was quickly voted down so you may not have seen it. This is interesting for a couple of reasons. First it is an interesting case study on how digg works and on whether political bias might be a problem for it. Second and most importantly this is just plain wrong.
Bush ordered the wiretapping of people without a court order or notification to congress. This is just unconstitutional. There is no law that allows this to happen. This is another example of the rights of americans being trampled in the name of safeguarding from terrorism.
This story was recently reported on digg where it was quickly voted down so you may not have seen it. This is interesting for a couple of reasons. First it is an interesting case study on how digg works and on whether political bias might be a problem for it. Second and most importantly this is just plain wrong.
Bush ordered the wiretapping of people without a court order or notification to congress. This is just unconstitutional. There is no law that allows this to happen. This is another example of the rights of americans being trampled in the name of safeguarding from terrorism.
posted by Oscar at 3:44 PM
11 Comments:
Whoa wait a second...
First of all "Bush ordered the wiretapping of people without a court order or notification to congress."
U failed to define what people ...
this statement makes it sound like he ordered the wiretapping of for example me calling rennie to say "natsu". Which isnt true.
What bush did and u did include this in the link was "Bush gave the National Security Agency license to eavesdrop on Americans communicating with people overseas" and "he allowed the NSA to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations."
In other words, this was a Secret program which the Bush Administration and the NSA were using to catch these monkey fuckers that want to blow shit up and kill innocent people. Why was this program secret... b/c if u tell the enemy ur strategy he tends to adapt.
Secondly did bush overstep his bounds...
I have two points to make about this
1st.. If he overstepped his bounds why hasnt the Democrats or whoever the hell is in charge of Impeaching the president done it???
Isnt a presidnet impeached when he does something Illegal???
Both the president and the democrats have TEAMS of lawyers everywhere ... I dont think he would have done it if it was illegal and secondly the democrats cant find amything illegal with it or else hed be impeached.
Note Not 100 percent positive on this point i read it in some article i cant find.
2nd.. This isnt the first president to apply such tactics.
Whoever that president was when we were fighting the Germans ... Roosavelt (I think) authorized such a thing to happen. German submarines and battle ships would hang out right outside of US borders where ships would leave dock... and somehow were communicating with people onland telling them when ships were leaving... the germans would then turn around and blow up American ships... THe president authorized such a eavsdropping to happen they located the fuckers and the blowing up of american ships stopped.
Now i dont know whether i agree with this or not ... i havnt really decided im conflicted... that fear of the government someday taking it to far bugs me... however deciding to go somewhere or someone i care about going somewhere and being blown up b/c some extremist dumbass feels if he does that its gonna help his cause poitn being i dont wanna die or anybody i care about to die stupidly. I dont know where i stand.
What i do know quite simply is if what Bush did was illegal ... wed be reading things about his Impeachment.
Lasly my brother doesnt have Word on his computer ... So if some sentance or i put something that doesnt make gramatical sense ask me to clarify...
For now Eat Milk and Gtg bye
You see in my America we have this simple thing called the constitution. The constitution has the bill of rights. The bill of rights has the 4th amendment. The 4th amendment says
" The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Basically, anything you do in your own house is private unless the police have a warrant. These warrants are issued by the courts and not by the president.
These are our rights and when you are willing to give up one then you are willing to give them all up.
Second this was just revealed on tuesday. A republican senator just announced that he will be asking for hearings about this which could eventually lead to charges and then to inpeachment. You see congress follows a procedure just like everyone does. The president, who when he took the oath of office swore to uphold the constitution, doesn't seem to want to follow procedure.
dude, its not about wiretapping, its about illegal wiretapping. It clearly states in federal law what you are supposed to do in order to wiretap someone's phone conversations, and you watch a lot of law and order, so this should come easy to you. Is Issue a warrant and determine probable cause that a crime is being committed. A warrant would then be issued in at the most 72 hours. Given that this is the NSA, I'm sure that they would be able to do a good job at being able to determine a probable cause that a crime is being commited for a suspected terrorist, while still being sneaky sneaky. As for punishing The NY times for this, this is a clear cut sign of the government overstepping its boundaries. First of all, that's what they get for fucking up, and second of all, polictical rammifications were being felt even before the article was published.
Finally, There are a few successes that have come of this though: several officials said the eavesdropping programme had helped uncover a plot by Iyman Faris, an Ohio trucker and naturalised citizen who pleaded guilty in 2003 to supporting al-Qaeda by planning to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge with blowtorches. What appeared to be another Qaeda plot, involving fertiliser bomb attacks on British pubs and train stations, was exposed last year in part through the programme, the officials said"
as was reported by the Times, Although, why they couldn't of done that without a warrant, I don't know. Finally, Carlos, Roosevelt, to the best of my knowledge didn't do any wiretapping. what he did do was he issued an executive order to lock up 120,000 Japanese-Americans in internment camps(pseudo-concentration camps). This was upheld in by the Supreme Court, though with a strongly argued minority dissent.
Neto and Carlos Msn discussion has lots of valid points etcc... and such
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
EURO trip on tv
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
Scotty doesnt know that fiona and me do it in her bed every sunday
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
haha
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
dude rennie's monitor is awesome
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
i'm watching the simpsons and talking to you at the same time
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
dude
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
play jedi on it
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
i came in my pants
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
Is constituition synonymous with federal law?
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
no
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
"It clearly states in federal law what you are supposed to do in order to wiretap someone's phone conversations"
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
rennie
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
thats true
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
meh i stand by my point
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
if hes wrong
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
hell be impeached
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
else
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
hes not
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
i hope he's impeached but investigations take a long time and who knows whether it will finish before the next election
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
i personally dont think he did anything he couldnt do and from what ive been reading teh Democrats got nothing other than its ethically wrong
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
and i cant decide
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
weather i feel its wrong or not
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
and another thing
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
when i counterpoint u guyz
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
i try and argue all points u guyz state
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
u guyz are pricks
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
pick on thing
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
write alot
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
and dont acknowledge where im right
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
the only point i didn't acknowledge was your other president's have done it point
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
and basically just because other people do something wrong doesn't mean its ok
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
ahh
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
but ur making the assumption its wrong
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
and that is yet to be determined
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
but your point was not about that
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
your point was its ok because others have done it
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
no it was
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
if the other guy didnt get in trouble
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
chances are he didnt do anything wrong
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
as long as it is mandated by the presidnet
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
he probably wasn't prosecuted
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
and not anybody els
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
also laws have changed in the intervening years
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
agreed
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
but no Judicial Case exists
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
defining this
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
secondly
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
no document
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
states
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
what the president can and cant do
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
its left vague in the constituion
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
b/c a balanced system exists
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
whereupon the judcial brance decides
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
the agents investigating have procedure and they include getting a court order...by usurping this power, the president was overstepping his bounds
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
thats fine
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
the case will still exist
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
and after the case defines if the president can or cant do this
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
then we define weather what he did was wrong or not
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
but not untill then
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
true but judge's have to rule with the constitution so i believe what he did will be deemed illegal
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
no they dont
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
they can amend
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
and again
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
alll of this is differnant
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
judges can't amend the constitution only congress can and any actions taken before the amendment are still illegal
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
just b/c we are dealing with the President
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
ok, didnt know that
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
but still
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
Find me a document
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
which clearly states what the president can and cant do
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
i dont think its that easy neto
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
if it was
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
there wouldnt be so much speculation
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
i agree it is very complicated which is why i can't show you one single document that outlines the presidential powers other than the constitution but there have been hundreds of cases brought up to the supreme court that clarifies the constitution and the president is responsible for following all these decisions
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
agreed, but one doesnt exist on this case
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
which is why its complicated
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
but you should also know that the constitution outlines the duties for each branch and says that no other branch can step over and perform the other's duties
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
court orders and warrants are clearly the duty of the judicial branch
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
ok.... Bush didnt make a court order or a warrent
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
you require a court order to tap someone's phone
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
yes
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
but thats not the point
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
he didnt make ac ourt order to tap a pohone
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
thats the problem
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
he never overstepped the judical branch
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
by giving someone permission to tap a phone he is basically trying to issue a court order
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
nahhh
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
yahh
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
he said
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
to the NSA
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
do it
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
ill take care of it
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
thats not a court order
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
its "basically"
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
ok if i don't use legal language basically i am saying that the judicial branch is the only one who can give permission to tap someones phone
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
exactly thats the question at hand, Im no lawyer or anything buts whos to say what he can and cant do, it his powers arent even clearly defined in the constitution
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
lets leave it at this
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
im gonna copy and paste this whole conversation on the blog
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
he CAN do what the constitution tells him he can do
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
he CANT do anything the consitution says someones is to do
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
someone else is to do
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
Well obviously this is where teh shady area is the final test will be this
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
if hes impeached
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
then ur right
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
if hes not
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
then they got nothign on him
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
i disagree
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
let the Judicial system decide
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
impeachment is very difficult because it is not decided simply by one branch
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
congress senate and supreme court have to agree
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
which is all republicans
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
i think the supreme court will just simply rule that the searches were illegal
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
i don't really think we will get impeachment in time
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
something only slightly relevant but interesting.....
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
"In separate surveillance news, the NYT fronts, and the WP goes inside with, the release of papers showing that counterterrorism agents at the FBI have investigated and monitored activist groups, such as PETA and Greenpeace. The documents, released as part of a lawsuit by the ACLU, show how FBI officials gained access to several of these groups by using informants."
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
im just gonna grab this converstaion
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
and post it
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
cool
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
hehe i read up on this shit yesterday cuz i figured u guyz where gonna post on it
((NUKE)) Your Lucky Lotto Numbers For Today Are 4-18-15-16-23-42 says:
so its not just suspected terrorists that could be wiretapped but anti-war protesters too
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
from arcticle u posted "He acknowledged during the address that he allowed the NSA "to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations."
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
International Communications being key here
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
and stop im tired of copying and pasting over and over here
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
haha
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
well argue some more when checo reads this shit
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
and flaco
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
etccc....
¢®°nù§ gøÞ õƒ +îm€ says:
hehe and mimi
There was a lot of good points said in that MSN conversation. but I do have to say one thing.
Carlos, you asked for a document that said what the president can and cannot do. There isn't one, they're all split into several documents. This special case is underlined under the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Act. In that document, it states what to do when you need to wiretap a suspects phone. Neto also said most of the things I would've said, and more, but, it is taking a long time to investigate him. he is also getting away with a lot of things. why isn't he being investigated for New Orleans? lets say there was a fire in kingsville, and it took the firemen three days to get there. I would think that the Fire Dept should be investigated as to why it took them so long. Also, I noticed that he's making movements a lot like the mafia, you notice how in the movies, the guys in the mafia give you subtle threats, so the police really can't do anything about it? Or how a mob boss hides behind ass loads of red tape and loopholes of the law so he can kill a man and get away with it? That's how I feel our president is acting like.
ok the way i see it everybody has been ignoring a critical point. as u so nicely put it neto the fourth amendment states:
" The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, BUT UPON PROBABLE CAUSE, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
and in the posted article it states:
He acknowledged during the address that he allowed the NSA "to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations."
now links to al Qaeda is just the kind of probable cause i think is needed in this case.
it's like smelling weed outside a dorm room. not even UPD needs a damn search warrent to go in there. i know i was with them.
and i agree with carlos if he fucked up we'll know and either way the system works.
Checo, the 4th amendment says you need probable cause to get a WARRANT. Now I don't know how it works in dorm exactly since technically it is not our own property but the police can not barge into a home I own no matter what they smell unless they have a warrant.
Checo, I said that you had to determine probable cause. That's how you issue a warrant. Even, smelling weed outside a dorm room isn't related to this, because having ties to Al Quieda is first of all serious accusation. And it is not how the law works. And the system doesn't work, The people in charge of the 9/11 commission believe that we're in serious danger actually.
neto the way i think it works is with either a warrent OR probable cause.
and ren i'm not even going to dignify that comment with a response.
that's because you're wrong.
you have to determine probable cause to get a warrant. And the system doesn't work.
its just funny how people fight over an organization that doesnt even exist.
cheers
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